Give the whole baby-making thing a rest already
| Have Your Say |
I received a thought-provoking comment in response to the post How many did you say you have?, which was a follow up, in a way, to this post: Duggar family move over - meet the Ionces; 18 kids, no twins.
This is what barbarag wrote in response to the first one:
I find this kind of story fascinating in the same way information on a child molester or a bad car accident is fascinating. It’s a glimpse into the grotesque and is completely and essentially foreign to me.
Have any of these over-producers hear of overpopulation? Ever hear of dwindling food and energy resources?
The children of such irresponsibly procreative parents are doomed to be responsible for single-handedly overconsuming irreplaceable natural resouces and food supplies just by virture of having kids of thier own.
Even if EVERY descendant of these crazy baby-making parents ONLY produced two kids of thier own–just replaced themselves and thier child’s other parent–the original 18 children would produce 32 grandchildren, who would produce 64 great-grandchildren who would be eating and beathing and emitting a LOT more resouces, much of that non-renewable, than my two children (and maybe four grandchildren, and maybe eight grandchildren).
The world doesn’t have room for rampant and irresponsible child-breeding. In the USA and Canada, we’re no longer poverty-stricken peasants having kids as old-age insurance or because most of them die before they reached adulthood. Ever hear of Zero Population Growth?
small deletion*Enough already. Give your womb a break already! Save some of the resources for the rest of us. Take some time to send one of your litter to college instead of making more you cannot afford to fully educate.
Give the whole baby-making thing a rest already.
*Only two lines are missing due to their discriminatory content
Of course, everyone is entitled to their opinion, which is why I’m posting this. I know how I feel but I’d like to know how you feel about this. Does barbarag have a point?
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POSTED IN: Multiples
24 opinions for Give the whole baby-making thing a rest already
Meagan Francis
Jul 29, 2008 at 6:48 pm
While I wouldn’t choose to have 18 kids myself, I can accept that the Duggars and possibly the Ionces (haven’t read the article yet) have a religious/world view that values children very, very highly.
From an overpopulation standpoint, US fertility rates hover right around replacement levels (in other Western countries they are experiencing worrisome UNDERpopulation) and that’s not likely to be affected very much by the occasional and rare BIG family. It’s not like everybody’s going to run out and start having 18 or even 8 or even 4 kids. As world “problems” go, this isn’t something I think barbarag needs to worry herself over very much.
barbarag
Jul 30, 2008 at 3:17 am
Thank you, Meagan Francis, for telling me what I do and do not have to worry myself about. I’ll sleep easier tonight knowing I can cross “USA overpopulation via gigantic numbers of children generated by one set of parents” off my list o’ worries.
(Pssst. Ever heard of Utah? Think they have a replacement rate of babies being born?)
In any case, it’s wildly irresponsible to look at the USA or Canada in a vacuum, to say since we don’t have a problem with our ballooning population, we shouldn’t worry about it.
We don’t exist as a separate entity from other places in the world. Many of those other places DO have a problem with wildly growing populations. The challenges they face become our concerns. We are, and have been since our early days, stewards to the rest of the world.
They fall into disagreements with their neighbors; we go help them sort things out.
They fall ill; we send aid.
They cannot feed themselves; we send food.
They have too many children; we adopt the extras.
We don’t live in a vacuum, them or us. If they are having children they cannot support, we will be there (wherever *there* is) to help sort it out. I’d really like my tax money to go toward something beyond paying for the basic necessities to keep starving children alive and/or paying for state-sponsored immunizations for a horde of 18 children from one family.
So you see, Meagan, it actually IS my problem. Yours, too.
Cassinda Fergeson
Jul 30, 2008 at 3:31 am
My problem comes with I have seen the neglect of people with only 4 or so kids. While I am sure these parents are wonderful ( I saw the special on TLC with the one building their house), they are still only human. Can you honestly tell me you would have the time energy and money to give each child the individual attention they deserve. An ideal class size in school is in the mid twenties and that is in an 8 hour a day setting not a 24 set. I respect any person that can give their lives so fully to their children but by having this many they are putting them all at a disadvantage. I have never agreed with religion being a reason to effect not only another life but that of the world around us. If it turns out they can’t take care of these children it will fall on others to do so. Much like those who get on welfare and because of religious reasons won’t use contraceptives and therefore continue to put more children into the world that they can’t provide for. That to me is more irresponsible than anything else, simply because that poor decision affects so many different people. 18 kids is just far too many. All there is to is.
Marijke
Jul 30, 2008 at 6:09 am
@meagan - do you think the children in these large families get the type of attention that one would hope they have? We often hear from the oldest daughter of larger (I’m thinking four or five kids) who feel resentful that they had to play a major role in caring for younger siblings. Could this be a problem in these mega-large families as well?
Marijke
Jul 30, 2008 at 6:11 am
@barbarag - you make a good point about how the rest of the world sends in aid. I was wondering about the fact that, in the poorer countries, women have more kids because they know they’ll lose a few and they want a few to survive to adulthood. Do you think that if we helped them live better, with more kids surviving, that their families would get smaller?
Marijke
Jul 30, 2008 at 6:12 am
@Cassinda - Regarding the financial aspect of large families - if the family was independently wealthy and could guarantee that they would not be taking public funds, would that change your opinion?
Karen Lynch
Jul 30, 2008 at 7:32 am
I think @barbarag’s point is that people should consider the socio-economic consequences of their procreation and make a choice based on whether they can afford to raise such a large family vs. place the financial burden on our government (and the taxpayers).
However … in our beloved “free” countries, people are indeed free to make whatever choices they want to make, based on their own criteria.
So they’re free to procreate … and we’re free to talk about their personal business openly, write about and debate it online. That’s freedom for you, and isn’t that wonderful?
tjwriter
Jul 30, 2008 at 8:54 am
I think you make a good point, Karen, but it doesn’t even take large families to burden our government.
In my personal experience, I know of several couples who used having a baby as a way to obtain free things from the various support systems of the government. Putting off getting married so that you can get a free education is apparently the way to go for some of these people.
Anne
Jul 30, 2008 at 9:29 am
So according to the initial post, having children quotas, such as the one child per family law in China, is more ideal then living in a democratic nation and having as many children as you want? Infanticide, sterilization and sex-selection abortions have lead to where at the present time (according to msnbc) to ratio of boys to girls currently being born is 120:100
–The shortage of women is creating a “huge societal issue,” warned U.N. resident coordinator Khalid Malik earlier this year.
“In eight to 10 years, we will have something like 40 to 60 million missing women,” he said, adding that it will have “enormous implications” for China’s prostitution industry and human trafficking— http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5953508
So just send off you daughters to China. And while you’re at it, get rid of your third child because you wouldn’t want to overcomsume resources.
Annon
Jul 30, 2008 at 10:41 am
I come from a family of 13 children. I don’t feel that myself and my family are overly using YOUR resourses. They are as much mine as yours. I figure it is ok since I know of at least 12 couples who have no kids so it balances out.
We were raised on a farm. We raised all the food we ate except for flour and sugars and packages of oatmeal. We grew enough oats to replace any in the oatmeal we bought. We sold it to other farmers for their cattle.
Our vegetables were grown organically although it wasn’t called organic then. We had cattle and beef and milk, chickens for eggs and meat. We made our own butter, preserves and jams.
We gave away enough vegetables during those years to the less fortunate to have feed all of us for the next 100 years. Everything was composted before it came in favor to do so.
Of my self and 12 siblings, we have a total of 10 biological offsping which does not even replace us not counting the spouses.
Should my parents have started taking the extras after 2 out and leave them in the forest like sometimes happens in China.
So no, barbarag, the fact that this family has 18 kids does not concern me or the over use of YOUR resourses. It balanes out.
And sure as an older sibling, I helped out with the younger ones. Thats why it is called a family
Meagan Francis
Jul 30, 2008 at 1:25 pm
barbarag–I realize we do not live in a vacuum. The fact is that there are different factors driving birthrates in poorer countries than there are here. My point is simply that the very rare HUGE family here in the US is not, in my opinion, worth getting worked up about. I have four kids, and know just as many people with none. OVERALL, in our country, it balances out. Worldwide, no, it doesn’t; but again, different factors, a whole different set of problems. The fact that this one family of 18 may need state-subsidized immunizations doesn’t even register as a drop in the bucket compared to the money our country spends on other things.
Marjike, I have four kids, and pay plenty of attention to them. My oldest son is not a babysitter or a housekeeper. I can see how that dynamic could happen, but every family is different, and lots of people have unhappy childhoods or plenty to look back and complain about regardless of the number of kids in their family.
I spend as much time with my kids as plenty of parents of one or two that I know–and I know people with seven or eight kids who spend more time with them than I do, so really, the number doesn’t prove anything. Lifestyle, choices, time spent at work…again, there are a lot of factors at play here. And honestly, I think that today’s parents are sometimes pressured to pay *too much* attention to our kids (a trend that’s been documented and is now being decried by experts–i.e. “hyperparenting”). You can go too far in either direction.
There are always tradeoffs–no, my kids may not get as much individual attention as they would if I had just two, but they have another resource–siblings who will most likely far outlive myself and my husband and grow old with each other. They’re learning a lot from growing up with many siblings. They have constant playmates, which in some ways actually makes my job easier rather than harder. It’s not better or worse than having fewer kids; it’s just different. I can see the argument against having 18 kids from different perspectives, but when we’re talking about parents not being able to handle four or five kids…well, you really can’t make that assumption until you’ve lived it. Honestly, it’s not that difficult to do my job as a mom of many…and do it well.
Meagan Francis
Jul 30, 2008 at 2:50 pm
[...] This week I’ve stumbled across a few different conversations about raising large families–two of them in relation to Katie Allison Granju’s Babble.com essay about why she wants a big family (both at Babble and also in the comments section on her blog post about it), and one in a discussion about the Ionce family with 18 children over at the Womb Within blog. [...]
Cassinda Fergeson
Jul 30, 2008 at 3:13 pm
@Marijke no because money is only one of my points. Money can’t love you, teach you, or give you the time and support a parent can. 18 kids can’t even equal out to two hours a day of quality time alone with each child. ow can that be good parenting?
Marijke
Jul 30, 2008 at 3:31 pm
Thanks again Meagan - I just wanted to point out that the older kids thing isn’t what I think - just that many people do think that.
Meagan Francis
Jul 30, 2008 at 3:39 pm
Marijke, I figured you were just posing a question you’d heard before–but it’s one I hear a lot, so I’m glad you did!
Meagan Francis
Jul 30, 2008 at 3:40 pm
“18 kids can’t even equal out to two hours a day of quality time alone with each child. ow can that be good parenting?”
Interesting. I know very few people who spend 1-2 hours of “quality time” alone with their children, except perhaps infants, regardless of how many kids they have. Who decided that was the gold standard? Isn’t there value in other relationships and simply being there and accessible to your kids?
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Alicia, Mental Health Notes
Jul 31, 2008 at 12:51 pm
To barbarag:
“Irresponsible child-breeding,” which I think would be better described as “irresponsible breeding,” is when people have more children than they have the resources to take care of (money, food, clothing, shelter, etc.). At that point, the children start lacking food and other essentials, and they either a) grow up malnourished, or b) become the government’s/tax payer’s responsibility. When you knowingly have more children than you can take care of, and potentially need the government/tax payers to take care of your children - well, then, yes, that’s irresponsible.
“Irresponsible breeding” is not, however, when people have more children than what you feel comfortable with. As someone noted above, the resources here are just as much their’s (the children’s) as they are yours.
Furthermore, it costs nothing to educate a child. School is free. Sure, parents have to pay for school clothes, lunches (if they don’t qualify for free or reduced meals), backpacks, pens, pencils, paper, and extracurriculars, but K-12 education itself is, the last time I checked, free (well, at least it is in America; I’m not familiar with other countries, so, I apologize upfront where I’m wrong). Now, if you’re referring to colleges and universities - again, the last time I checked, sending your kids off to college isn’t really part of raising them. Yes, higher education is great and can help better society as a whole, but it’s not necessary in keeping a kid alive and healthy.
Claudine Jalajas
Jul 31, 2008 at 7:24 pm
I come from a family of 4 children. I am second in line and my two younger brothers are much younger than me (more than 11 years). I took care of them–a LOT. I don’t resent any moment of it. It was great, we are still super close to this day, and it was great experience for me now as a mother of three. IF I was 5 years younger I’d have another one too. My children are all fed, well-dressed, and immunized all by our OWN funds. We are two professionals that make good money and just decided that we wanted three children. My two sons share a room but I hardly call that harmful. In fact, I think it’s a good way to learn about how to share and deal with people in the real world. And one day when my husband and I are gone my children will have each other as family. The original post though–whether we should sanction how many children someone is allowed to have is disgusting. These are likely the same people whining about how the government has too much control. G’head.. give them control of your ovaries and sperm.. that’s the ticket.
Mandy
Aug 1, 2008 at 4:07 pm
Just a note: The families I know who have just 2 or 3 kids may not consume as many of the replenishable resources that my 5 children do, but they tend to create up to twice the non-recyclable, consumer-crazy refuse that we do. With more children comes less “stuff” for the sheer fact that we don’t have the room for it. The mother of one child recently asked if my daughter could come over to play with her only child so that hers “could learn how to share.” Hmm. My children are learning THAT in a large family (and many other charater qualities that those raised in a small family don’t have a clue about) and will someday share what they’ve learned with the children of parents who INSISTED that they had the right idea. More “attention” from parents does not a better citizen make.
Katrina
Oct 16, 2008 at 12:39 am
All of these responses are very interesting. I don’t know if I have too much to add here, except to say that I just had my ninth baby a few weeks ago, and although a large family isn’t a fit for everyone, no one has the right to tell me that we should stop “making babies”. My husband makes a great living as a fire fighter/paramedic, we own our own home plus rental property, we live debt-free except for our mortgage. Some of our children go to public school and others are home schooled. Our kids do not lack for anything — not material things, not attention from their parents, and certainly not love. I am a stay-at-home, work-from-home mom so I am always here for them. They are not cared for by a nanny or daycare facility. They are in soccer, tennis lessons, piano lessons, club soccer, BMX racing, plus they have their church activities once or twice a week. I just don’t see why people would think that we need to stop adding onto our family when we are such a happy family. My kids ask me all the time for a new baby. They love it. My husband and I LOVE children big time. We feel they are the biggest blessing there is. I wish I were 10 years younger so that I could have at least 5 or 6 more. My children always have a sibling or two or three to play with. They are learning to share their things. They are learning to wait their turn. They are learning that we all work together as a family. They are learning that they are an important part of our family unit. They are learning that the world might be a bit harsh, but no matter how bad it gets out there they always have a HUGE support group here at home that loves them no matter what. It’s a safe home, a loving home. There is no neglect. My kids get read to on most nights, they are fed well every night, they bathe and are clean everyday. No, their socks don’t always match, and sometimes we run out of the house so quickly that one or two of the kids will realize later that they left their shoes at home. Ugh. It happens. But somehow we manage and don’t sweat the small stuff. The laundry piles are outrageous, and if I had the luxury of hired help, that is the first kind I would ask for — someone to come in and do our laundry!! But seriously, I would never tell a person with two children that they “should” have more. I would never question a person with just one child “why” they only had one. Is it so wrong of me to expect the same out of others? I don’t want to be judged or questioned. We are not on food stamps. We buy our own things and have never had to ask anyone for anything or get any kind of gov’t aide. We have plenty of money to support the children that we have now and any more that might come along in the future. So then, are we being irresponsible? I think not. College? Well, some of my children will want college, others might choose a trade school — not everyone chooses an expensive college. Perhaps some will earn scholarships, others might take out loans, and of course we will help out financially when we can. The bottom line is this: if the children are well cared for both emotionally and financially by their parents, then what’s the big deal what the number is??? In my opinion, a lot of people who thump their noses at large families could be a bit envious. They see a large family functioning quite well and feel inadequate that they have a hard time managing their 2 or 3 kids. I don’t know how many times I get the comment from a mom struggling at a store with two or three little ones and will see me happily trudging down the aisle with my 9. “How come you look so calm? I can’t even handle my three!” they will say. I’m not pulling my hair out during a trip to Coscto or Target. We actually love going to those two places. I have many friends with 2 - 4 kids who do all they can to avoid going shopping with their kids. But with us, it’s just the normal thing to do. My kids are learning how to cope with the chaos we experience from time to time — well who am I kidding, we get chaos quite often. My husband calls it “controlled chaos”. But my kids are learning that there are very few “10’s” in life…not to sweat the small stuff or over-react. They are learning how to cope in not-so-perfect situations, how to roll with it when things don’t go as planned– so many people today (adults) are on meds just to cope in everyday normal life. What is UP with that??!! I think living in a large family teaches you how to cope with things and to not have melt-downs when things don’t go your way or if things go wrong. My older ones know how juggle a fussy baby on their hips, how to fix a boo-boo, how to make a toddler sit still while getting a diaper change, how to buckle kids into car seats, how to hold a bag in front of a child while he or she is getting sick in the car, and how to LAUGH through it all and to not stress or take it too seriously. I think those are life lessons in themselves. And it’s great training for when they are parents one day, if they choose to be. Even my older kids ask for a new baby — that right there tells me they are not over-burdened with all the kids. If they were, they would beg me to stop having children. But instead of that, we have the opposite going on here. They want more! Why??? It’s because they are HAPPY! Siblings are fun for them…yes, a lot or work at times, but fun! Right now as I type it is 10:30pm and where are the kids? Five of them are all piled in my bed, asleep! They have their own beds, but they choose to pile up together whenever they get the chance. WHY? Because they are happy and they find comfort in each other. So please, tell me to stop having kids or that it was wrong to have the nine that I have….@@ When we are out and about with all the kids and we run into an older couple or someone above the age of 65, we get the best comments from them. Most say that we are very blessed and that they wish they had had more children. Imagine that! Looking back on their lives, their regret is that they didn’t have more children! I wonder why that is? There is a family down the street from me who has one child, a son. The mother has always looked at me as if I were crazy, having so man children, I must be a bit crazy. She finally asked me a few weeks ago , “WHY do you have so many children?” and I just looked at her, and I looked down at her son and I said, “Well, you know how much joy and love you get from your son?” and she said, “Yeah…” and I said, “Well, I get that feeling NINE times as much!”
:)
Marijke
Oct 16, 2008 at 5:19 am
Hi Katrina - thanks so much for taking the time to show us a snippet of your life. I love your last line.
I have three and each one gives me something different and needs something different, if that makes sense.
Please visit again!
Marijke
Number 18 for Michelle and Jim Bob Duggar
Dec 19, 2008 at 7:03 am
[...] Give the whole baby-making thing a rest already [...]
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